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Trench_raider
01-20-2006, 04:51 PM
Do bolt action sniper rifles that shoot 450 fps or less fall under the 100 foot minimum engagment range for sniper rifles or the 40 foot range normally used for support weapons?

Pardon my ignorance on this issue, but the way the TASO rules read, it could be either one.

"Trench Raider"

HammerHead
01-20-2006, 04:59 PM
I would err on the side of caution, for the time being, and engage at > 100 feet with it. If for no other reason than it LOOKS like a sniper rifle and confuse and cause ill will at the field, regardless of the true velocity. Not to mention, depending on fluctuations in the velocity, you could be consistently over 450.

Katana
01-20-2006, 05:50 PM
The only replicas that can use the support weapon rule are support weapons, currently defined as the M249 SAW, M60, and RPK. Nothing else counts per TASO, until that rule is changed.

A sniper rifle is a single-shot rifle that is physically incapable of full-auto fire, whether AEG or spring or gas, and it is limited to a MAXIMUM of 550 fps with 0.2g bb's. It has a 100ft minimum engagement distance under which no targets should be engaged with that replica, and if it is carried on the field the person doing so MUST carry a normal velocity airsoft replica as well (regardless of whether the backup is a springer sidearm or a regular M16 AEG).

Your rifle is definitely a sniper rifle and would use that rule, regardless of the fact it isn't shooting at the maximum allowed velocity limit for such a replica. If you were to carry it on the field, you'd have to also carry at least one of your usual assortment of sidearms that you always have on you.

The velocity limits are only limits, not goals. I have only one main skirmishing AEG that shoots at the max fo 400fps with 0.2g bb's. All the rest of them are around 350fps, even though I could go faster if I wanted. I find that I don't lose too much performance, it's easier on the mechbox and its mechanical innards, and I don't have to sweat chrono's at games so much.

Trench_raider
01-20-2006, 05:58 PM
Ok, so the velocity limits are based upon the role of the replica rather than actual fps then.

That answers my question.
Thanks...


you'd have to also carry at least one of your usual assortment of sidearms that you always have on you.

Heh...
I did feel a bit like Blackbeard last weekend. ;-)

"Trench Raider"

Katana
01-21-2006, 11:56 AM
No prob, Trench. All that hardware is one of the things that makes you cool. :)

Rayzor
01-21-2006, 12:06 PM
I was lucky enough to be popped with that little Derringer. :doh:

AustinWolv
01-21-2006, 12:07 PM
The only replicas that can use the support weapon rule are support weapons, currently defined as the M249 SAW, M60, and RPK. Nothing else counts per TASO, until that rule is changed. We'll have to keep an eye on the TASO site, as it appears the latest word, and I'm not sure if it is official or not, is that the TASO Directors voted to rules wording as-is, but leave it up to the event organizers to allow/disallow other "support" weapons at their choosing.

Personally, I can't say I agree with that due to the burden of repeated questions on the event organizers and the "good 'ol boy" system that could let one replica be legit at one field, but not at another, along with the inconsistency from op to op. That is just my opinion.


No prob, Trench. All that hardware is one of the things that makes you cool. I must agree. The personal taste and fun that Trench has with the replicas he purchases is admirable.

CyanRiven
01-23-2006, 12:31 PM
Boy ohh boy... you guys just donít make it easy do ya... ;0)

This is a tough one. I have to agree that expectations are set and that if I saw a guy hit me close up with a rifle (single shot bolt action) that I wouldnít get upset, Iím not saying I would but I cant say I wouldnít either. I would imagine that most people will judge based on how hard the hit came but for those that try to uphold the rules how are they to tell if they happen to be watching? Whatís to say someone wont get mad when they see this. I'm not too sure this is really that big of an issue though. I mean honestly how many times have you run into this being a problem?

If a ruling were to come about your basically telling people they will be at a severe disadvantage if they donít upgrade their Rifle. They cant shoot under 100' and how far can a stock one shoot? So you have the difference between 100' and let say the stock one shoots 125' thus leaving the stock guy with a 25' window of opportunity.

After thinking about this for a bit I decided to make my thoughts known. I honestly believe that this type of situation is best handled by another one of my ideas. Player MP's or Player Ref's for you paintball types. It has been a long time idea of mine to put players on the field that act as referee's for the event staff or are event staff themselves (we've started to see this idea become more and more practiced this last year). Basically requiring the event staff to make their games safe by putting these people on the field to make sure rules are followed. Thus further allowing someone to call a chrono check if they see the need. Donít get all upset because I'm turning this into paintball and think for a second.
1. How often have you heard anyone yell out someone needs to chrono that thing or what have you? Personally I think 4-5 times in the 6 years ive been playing.
2. Doesnít it make sense? Sure its a game of honor but most of us can appreciate how when the adrenalin hits, your most level headed moment it is not. (threw in a little yoda there for ya) Some of us can better control it some cannot.
3. Why not? Whatís your solution and does it really work? Personally I donít like restricting people. Leave it up to them to screw up, then its their fault not the event promoters/TASO's/or whoever.

How I can appreciate not letting anyone with a sniper rifle shoot under 100' I donít believe its the overall best solution for Airsoft of all aspects in Texas nor is it even a big enough issue to warrant a serious discussion but I guess the response to this thread will determine that. Remember though... TASO supports event promoters and field owners who want to make their games/fields safer. Thus its totally 100% A-OK for an event promoter to state that he will not allow those with a sniper rifle to shoot under 100' and it should be up to his field staff to make sure of this.

Related issue:
This weekend playing at a game hosted by a local Airsoft store I found out 15 minutes before go time that I would have to lay down my 440's fps SAW. Naturally I was like WTF! Thanks for telling me before hand... however they had, it was a communication breakdown that caused that information not to be posted in the best of places. But TASO supports them as they are trying to make their field safer. Which I totally support and respect based on the fact that they do cater to a younger crowd.

Thast just my two cents... take of it what you will.

AustinWolv
01-23-2006, 01:47 PM
This weekend playing at a game hosted by a local Airsoft store I found out 15 minutes before go time that I would have to lay down my 440's fps SAW. Naturally I was like WTF! Thanks for telling me before hand... however they had, it was a communication breakdown that caused that information not to be posted in the best of places. But TASO supports them as they are trying to make their field safer. Which I totally support and respect based on the fact that they do cater to a younger crowd. The only redeeming part of that is that the CA249 (or STAR for that matter) supports a quick spring change. ;)
Nothing wrong with field-specific rules beforehand, but they should make sure to not say they are using TASO rules then. Why? Because if I heard a skirmish/op was using TASO rules, I would automatically think that 450fps/.2g support weapons were permissable, which was obviously not the case for you.


1. How often have you heard anyone yell out someone needs to chrono that thing or what have you? Personally I think 4-5 times in the 6 years ive been playing. I can't recall the last time I heard someone yell out during a skirmish about that.

2. Doesnít it make sense? Sure its a game of honor but most of us can appreciate how when the adrenalin hits, your most level headed moment it is not. (threw in a little yoda there for ya) Some of us can better control it some cannot. Not in my opinion. It makes sense for existing teams and players to be self-policing and teaching others, not to be baby-sat. The rule enforcment needs to be from peers, not from the "man", i.e. referee, having to watch them.

3. Why not? Whatís your solution and does it really work? Personally I donít like restricting people. Leave it up to them to screw up, then its their fault not the event promoters/TASO's/or whoever. Self-policing and peer pressure; anything more than that will put responsibility on the field owners/event organizers as you say.


If a ruling were to come about your basically telling people they will be at a severe disadvantage if they donít upgrade their Rifle. They cant shoot under 100' and how far can a stock one shoot? So you have the difference between 100' and let say the stock one shoots 125' thus leaving the stock guy with a 25' window of opportunity. The counter-argument is that was their choice not to upgrade it. They entered the field of play knowing they would not have a range advantage. It is not the responsibility of the rules to cater to someone's budget or willingness to enter the field with a bolt-action rifle and no range. :)

Honestly, you can't treat a stock bolt-action the same as one shooting 450fps/.2g. A stock one isn't going to cause damage at AEG range, whereas the 450fps/.2g can. The question was about a 450fps/.2g rifle, and thus I think the 100foot rule is legit in that case.

I really don't think it is that hard of a question. Is the sniper rifle upgraded? Yes? It falls under the sniper weapon velocity rules then, regardless.

Furthermore, why would someone buy a bolt-action and NOT upgrade it to increase range after learning about it a bit? That is merely signing up to be outgunned from the start.

CyanRiven
01-23-2006, 02:59 PM
Point 2:
In all honesty I think your right... in Utopia. But I feel that the real world wont allow this to be the full solution. Please keep in mind I'm coming from a point of view that is Airsoft as a whole not the world we have created between all the teams and players that attend the OPS promoted at DFWAV, Hunters, etc... that we have grow acustom too. What do you do with unaffiliated players? How do you solve the good ol' boy problem within teams? What can a team really do to there member that violates the rules? Are they even going to enforce whatever rules they may have... we are talking about one of there close friends. Even then worst case they kick the guy off there team but he can still come to the events just not as a member of the original team. So what got solved? I believe the solution can start with exactly what you said but I donít believe it can be finished with exactly what you said. I mean what does a field out in BFE, TX do with their 30 players at a paintball field where no one from a professional (Please allow the use of the word "professional" to describe established teams such as W.C., FOG, etc...) team or from the TASO organization is attending do? Can they really use peer pressure when they have a crowd of 30 people where maybe 2-3 of the players know each other. I think peer pressure works great when its W.C. vs. Highlanders but when you throw in the first timers, etc... can this system hold up? I just donít think so.

Point 3:
I think the event promoter (field owner or not) needs to take some responsibility, why should they not? These events are profitable or at least should be. They should be responsible for peoples safety and "Ensuring" that the guidelines they choose to use TASO or not are followed. Why should I be able to throw an event collect some money and walk away? Accountability for a good or bad game needs to lie on the event promoter. I shouldnt be responsible for brining a self policing force with me to the game, if I want to go solo to a game I should be able too. I see this as self policing, self policing doesnít mean the players have to police just that the Airsoft community has to police itself. Event promoters are part of that community.

Point 4: (this one wasnt noted but take the one after 3 as point 4)
I could support something that stated any upgraded model should be treated as the highest safety ruling for that model. i.e. sniper not upgraded is 10 ft. just like the AEG's, sniper upgraded (reguardless of fps) = 100' rule. That makes sense. But a bone stock sniper rifle having to follow 100' rule seems rather anti productive to our sport and is the basis for my non-support before... perhaps I got off on a tangent. I fully support an upgraded model following the highest safety regulations just not a stock one.

AustinWolv
01-23-2006, 03:06 PM
Technically, this is way off-topic, so we can take it to email if you like, Cyan.
Some of your points are good, Cyan, but you are reaching with questions and arguments that were not part of this thread.

The only point on-topic:

Point 4: (this one wasnt noted but take the one after 3 as point 4)
I could support something that stated any upgraded model should be treated as the highest safety ruling for that model. i.e. sniper not upgraded is 10 ft. just like the AEG's, sniper upgraded (reguardless of fps) = 100' rule. That makes sense. But a bone stock sniper rifle having to follow 100' rule seems rather anti productive to our sport and is the basis for my non-support before... perhaps I got off on a tangent. I fully support an upgraded model following the highest safety regulations just not a stock one. The original question was not about a stock replica; it was about a 450fps/.2g rifle. However, I agree that a sniper rifle shooting 280fps, let's say it is a stock TM VSR-10, should not have to abide by the 100' rule.

I also happen to think the person chose their own poison in bringing a stock bolt-action to a 400fps/.2g AEG fight. :p

CyanRiven
01-23-2006, 03:16 PM
Yeah I know it got off topic there. I can totally agree with the end result to the original question.


I also happen to think the person chose their own poison in bringing a stock bolt-action to a 400fps/.2g AEG fight.
I couldnt agree more!