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Jay
07-14-2003, 01:41 PM
Will you be there?
What games /scenarios would you like to play?
Bringing friends?
Anything else?

Dragon
07-14-2003, 02:09 PM
1. No
2. BF1942 and Raven Shield
3. No.
4. What is the meaning of life?

Obsidian
07-15-2003, 11:12 AM
im there.

cclark1985
07-15-2003, 11:54 AM
I should be there if my part gets in.

Agrovale
07-15-2003, 12:20 PM
I'll be there too.

AustinWolv
07-15-2003, 01:08 PM
Should be there, but not confirmed yet.

cclark1985
07-15-2003, 01:40 PM
I would like to see several QUICK games. I love when there's just chaos going on. Firefights are so cool :)
The more adrenaline the better!!

Jay
07-16-2003, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by cclark1985
I would like to see several QUICK games. I love when there's just chaos going on. Firefights are so cool :)
The more adrenaline the better!!

I would make sure to show up and be ready early, then. Most of the CQB games are played at the beginning. Sometimes, one is played at the end when numbers dwindle and the survivors want to get in one more skirmish.

Jay should be there.

Bear
07-16-2003, 05:06 PM
Hey Wolv, if you come could you bring your M1A1? I'm looking at one for my next purchase and I'd just like to see how it feels before I commit.

Dragon
07-16-2003, 05:24 PM
Hey Wolv? When did you get an M1A1?

AustinWolv
07-16-2003, 07:13 PM
Dragon, I've had the Thompson for quite some time now.

Bear, if I make it out, I'll bring it.

Dragon
07-17-2003, 11:47 AM
Oh! THAT M1A1!

Trench_raider
07-17-2003, 03:49 PM
Hey all.

Yes, I plan on attending the game at TxPB this weekend. Bill says he will probably come down with me. I'm game for just about anything y'all want to play.

One request:
It looks like the high-caps I ordered for the M16VN are not going to show before this weekend. Yes, I should have ordered them sooner. I hate to beg and have always been an advocate of having one's own gear but does anyone have a an extra M16/M4 high-cap or two I could use this weekend. Playing last time with a single 190 round magazine left alot to be disired.

See you all this weekend.

"Trench Raider"

WidoW-MakeR
07-17-2003, 08:05 PM
I will most likely make it. Not bringing any friends.

This is an odd question, but does anyone have an extra 'MP5/G3 Scope mount' that I could maybe borrow. I just recently started upgrading things on my SG1 and I have a scope but no clamp. :-p

Also, if anyone has an extra can (doesnt havta be full) of green gas, I'll buy that from you.

cclark1985
07-17-2003, 08:21 PM
Widow, agro and obsidian sell gas. I think they sell it at $15 a can if my memory serves me correct.

mcoupe11
07-17-2003, 08:55 PM
... if my memory serves me correct."... if my memory serves me correctly." Adverb.

cclark1985
07-17-2003, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by mcoupe11
"... if my memory serves me correctly." Adverb.

Hmm... I knew that... I should have typed it like that.

Dark
07-17-2003, 09:44 PM
Both Kris and I will make it out this Sunday. I'd like to play another "assault the cedar fort" game.

skitelluride531
07-17-2003, 11:13 PM
hey i will be there. Me and my AK will hopefully kick some butt. This will be my first game with you guys, hope to have lots of fun. See you guys there.

WidoW-MakeR
07-17-2003, 11:25 PM
I found some gas, but anybody have a spare MP5/G3 mount I could borrow? Maybe on a gun not being used...?

NanashiRoff
07-18-2003, 12:27 PM
I'll be out there as well.

If possible, I would be willing to purchase some heavier weight BBs (.36, .3, something around there) from anyone. It doesn't have to be a whole bag, I just need a few to test out my SR25.

Thanks.

Obsidian
07-18-2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by WidoW-MakeR
I found some gas, but anybody have a spare MP5/G3 mount I could borrow? Maybe on a gun not being used...?

Iron sites baby.......er....plastic maybe :rolleyes:

Katana
07-18-2003, 04:40 PM
"Will you be there?
What games /scenarios would you like to play?
Bringing friends?
Anything else?"

1) For the first time in ages, yes. I think I can play.
2) More long-ish patrols out in the wooded areas. Stay in the shade, take it easy, be sneaky.
3) Whichever of my team-mates that show up.
4) I'm going to try to remember to bring some of my 0.36 bb stash for nanashiRoff.

Rayzor
07-18-2003, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by Jay
Will you be there?
What games /scenarios would you like to play?
Bringing friends?
Anything else?

Yes.
2 Standard Elimination games, one with 1 respawn allowed, and 2 objective-based games. That'd be nice.
Yes, one.
Anyone up for a very short trenches game at about 12:30?

...Obsidian I hope your not bringing your M60...

cclark1985
07-19-2003, 02:14 AM
I hope he is bringin the m60. I'd like a challenge. hahahahaha

Rayzor
07-19-2003, 11:54 AM
Yea, true. It would be a great opportunity to test how well you can formulate and execute a strategy.

skitelluride531
07-19-2003, 12:28 PM
Hey, about tommorows game, is it nessecary to have an orange tip on your gun to play? thanks

Katana
07-19-2003, 12:53 PM
No, an orange barrel isn't necessary to be able to play.

However, if you don't have an orange tip, be mindful of where you carry it and manipulate it when not playing. Waving it around in the parking lot would be a bad idea, for example.

Just use your common sense, and you should be fine.

Bear
07-19-2003, 01:08 PM
What's the meeting time again?

skitelluride531
07-19-2003, 01:11 PM
i believe that we meet at noon.

cclark1985
07-19-2003, 01:54 PM
The idea is to meet arround 12, and start playing arround 12:30 or 1:00. Of course there are people that show up a little bit later.

By the way, would someone bring their charger tomorrow. I've got a couple dead batterys that need a good charging.

AustinWolv
07-19-2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by skitelluride531
i believe that we meet at noon.

People arrive ~noon, play starts at 1pm.

Rayzor
07-19-2003, 08:05 PM
It's confirmed, my friend WILL be making it out there with me tomorrow.

cclark1985
07-19-2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by Rayzor
It's confirmed, my friend WILL be making it out there with me tomorrow.

Hurray, another little dude to shoot.

cclark1985
07-19-2003, 10:40 PM
I will for sure be there tomorrow. I finally got my mp5 all back together nicely. Boy was that an interesting feat replacing that cylinder and tappet plate.

Rayzor
07-19-2003, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by cclark1985
Hurray, another little dude to shoot.

Actually, he's 15 years old and is 6 foot 1 inch. He's also a smart player.

cclark1985
07-19-2003, 10:43 PM
Dang. Ohhhh welllsss..
What gun's he going to be using?

Rayzor
07-19-2003, 10:44 PM
Agro's 400 fps M16 :)

cclark1985
07-19-2003, 10:49 PM
Neat, what about you, what are you going to be toting?

Rayzor
07-19-2003, 10:57 PM
Agro's 400 fps AUG, which he claims has more accuracy and the same range as the M16. Hopefully, the thing won't be so friggin HUGE on me as the M16 was.

AustinWolv
07-19-2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Rayzor
Agro's 400 fps AUG, which he claims has more accuracy and the same range as the M16. Hopefully, the thing won't be so friggin HUGE on me as the M16 was.

Didn't you ask me to bring the MP5?

skitelluride531
07-19-2003, 11:41 PM
cclark1985, i will be there tommorow and i am a little kid.
:) (5'3 14 years old pretty small eh?) Lol dont pick on me too much though... :D

Ghost
07-20-2003, 09:09 AM
I will be there!

skitelluride531
07-20-2003, 09:31 AM
since i am only 14, do i need a parent release form?

AustinWolv
07-20-2003, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by skitelluride531
since i am only 14, do i need a parent release form?
There are forms in the front office that your parents need to fill out.

skitelluride531
07-20-2003, 09:37 AM
alright, well my mom already filled one out since it is my sister who is droppind me off, i printed one off the site.

WidoW-MakeR
07-20-2003, 12:06 PM
This may be too late, but I wont be coming due to a death in the family. Hope you guys have a good time.

Rayzor
07-20-2003, 06:47 PM
I would post my AAR right now, but Im dead tired. Maybe later.

skitelluride531
07-20-2003, 07:03 PM
wow i had a blast today, thanks for the good games guys. BTW i was the short kid with the AK and mp5k.

DoctorNo
07-20-2003, 08:39 PM
For pictures from today, check out this topic : photos topic (http://www.austinairsoft.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2235)

Agrovale
07-20-2003, 09:36 PM
Haha, according to my scale I lost 5 lbs today. Pretty impressive since I drained my 100oz. camelback (6.25 lbs). So that's 11.25 lbs I sweated off. Feels about right.


PS Sorry to hear that widowmaker. :(

Rayzor
07-20-2003, 09:39 PM
First off, I would like to thank everyone who participated today, as both me and my friend had a great time. That was easily the best way I've ever spent a Sunday afternoon.

1st Game:
The first game was a standard elimination game at Crackhouse and the field beside it. I didn't do much except lay down some cover fire before I got whacked.

2nd Game:
This game was much more interesting. Same thing, except the teams switched sides. When the game commenced, I made a beeline for the Cedar Fort with a few other people. From here, I was able to see many OPFOR without them seeing me. I was amazed when I managed to pick off someone all the friggin way at the tower fort from the Cedar Fort with small bursts. After that, me and my two teammates (We were all at the CF) focused our attention to an OPFOR who was flanking to the far right. One of us stayed back at the CF while my friend and I moved up to the tin bunkers ahead. There, we met up with a fourth gun (Chris). Chris gave me an order to move up to the third tin bunker. I did so, and got whacked immediately after crouching down. Later, I learned that Chris and my friend did not provide any cover fire for me because their guns were jammed/out of ammo. What a perfect time...

3rd Game:
This was by far the best game all day, played in the A-field. Mission cards were in use, as well as medic cards. Our team (Mainly Whiskey) had a simple objective: Search and Destroy. It took nearly 15 minutes before I found out where all the action was. My friend and I moved there, waited, and with the help of Agro and Wolv, we managed to make the enemies fall back. From here, our small squad moved back to where me and my friend came from and came in contact with a hostile and a friendly. We popped the tango when he failed to identify himself. We learned that what we thought was the second OPFOR was a friendly, Trench Raider. We met up with him, and gained yet another squad mate that had been traveling with TR. After standing around and talking a bit, we were joined by some unwanted guests. 2 paintballers wanted to "check out our guns and watch the game" so they followed us around. I wasn't too happy about this, as one of them was wearing a white shirt. Wolv gave me specific orders to stay seperate and parallel to the squad as they moved forward. After a bit, we were sprayed from behind by an OPFOR that happened to be following us. He was shot multiple times before calling himself out. After that, we had minor contact with other enemies, but they both retreated and we were soon joined with the rest of our team. With our entire squad in one area, we made contact with the enemy a short distance ahead. We set up a full scale perimeter and pretty much had a huge firefight with the OPFOR team the rest of the game. I managed to hit someone who tried to move to a new position in the bushes. After that I learned we had atleast 2 OPFOR to the right side of us, so I played it stealthy and managed to sneak all the way around the woods, eventually meeting up with 4 OPFOR. I didn't have a clear shot until Brittain moved up and I shot him with a single round. Immediately after, his teammate behind him crouched and sent a hail of bbs my way. We were both pretty close, maybe 20 feet away, when we both eliminated eachother. Shortly thereafter the game ended and everyone went up to the picnic area for a long break.

Damn...that was long. I'll post the other half later.

Brittain
07-20-2003, 10:34 PM
AAR

Excellent play today. Excellent turnout also, we played 13 on 13.

First skirmish:
Move to contact on the fort/crackhouse combined field. We divided into buddy teams with Sami and I paired together moving right towards the crackhouse. Moved up one barricade when my battery died. Handling this is a mature fashion I unslung my AEG, got Sami to put down cover fire, and rushed the crackhouse (with 2-4 guys inside). Miraculously reached the building, unholstered my sidearm (a newish experience) turned to surprise the guys in the house ... click, click. Damn! Safety still on. Pop. Pop. Pop. I'm dead. :o

Second skirmish:
Escort the target (aka me) mission onthe fort/crackhouse field. Lots of BB swapping later we managed to whittle Opfor down so we could push up on the right side of the fort. After Wolv retreated to the final metal barrier, Andrew, Chris and I advanced to the ditch. Unfortunately, our fire/movement broke down and Andrew got plunked. Shortly thereafter the target was downed trying to draw fire for Chris to get the kill.

Lonestar Field mission:
Escort the asset (again, aka me) to Melrose. Very fun, long game. After dividing into an 8 man kill team and a five man escort team, we proceeded through field center into A-Field. There was some heavy initial contact which we withdrew from followed by sporadic fighting all the way through A Field to Melrose. Having successfully reached Melrose with 30+ minutes of game time left we decided to patrol for the enemy and help everyone get their $$$ worth. This lead us back to the center/western portion of the field where we found a dug in OpFor. Much killing was done (well, not by me. I was still only carrying my sidearm. I did successfully catch a couple Opfor BBs) and I saw quality play by many players on both sides. The game eventually closed when the 1 1/2hr time limit was reached.

Thanks to everyone who showed and especially to those who helped with my gear problems.

Also, many compliments to the folks on my team today. Everyone was in the spirit and displayed solid tactics. Very fun to work with ya'll.

Agrovale
07-21-2003, 08:43 AM
Just wanted to add a few comments on the rules of the last game.

1: Medic rules - There needs to be some sort of time limit before you can declare yourself KIA. Say 5 minutes or so. Not once did I hear anyone calling for a medic. Everyone was just KIAing themselves for an instant respawn.

2: Our objective was search and destroy, which was impossible with unlimited respawns. :)

3: No wonder you bastards were camping on our spawn point (Melrose).

AustinWolv
07-21-2003, 08:47 AM
1. I heard people calling for medics. Didn't see anyone actually get medic'd though. I will admit that one point, the guys I was moving with got hit pretty hard and we had 60% casulties. We were at the extreme opposite end of the field from our respawn, and I decided to NOT make all those guys walk back across the field in the heat. Instead, I had them sit for 10 min's. I know a few were very appreciative of that.

2. No kidding. Especially in the size of that field. Especially since for assaulting or S&D, you need greater numbers than the enemy.

WidoW-MakeR
07-21-2003, 10:54 AM
Im glad to hear that you guys had a good time. I regret not being able to come, but as I said earlier, a death in the family kinda got in the way.


I hope I'll be able to join y'all in a few Sundays.

AustinWolv
07-21-2003, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by WidoW-MakeR
Im glad to hear that you guys had a good time. I regret not being able to come, but as I said earlier, a death in the family kinda got in the way.


I hope I'll be able to join y'all in a few Sundays.

Don't sweat it, family and friends come first. Besides, we skirmish pretty much every Sunday. ;)

Rayzor
07-21-2003, 12:47 PM
I was glad that I finally got a chance to work with Whiskey. :)

Dark
07-21-2003, 12:53 PM
We had several succesful medics on the FOG side of things. I think I got to 3 or 4 people. Can't remember for sure. I agree with the time limit thing. There was atleast one person that I could have reached given another minute.

Obsidian
07-21-2003, 03:53 PM
The San Antonio people had a good method that we should try.....at the respawn point or points they had cut strips of tape. When you died you went back and got one. Once your respawn point was out of tape you were dead. I dont care for our current methods of medic/respawn rules. There is no point to the game other than to burn BBs which pays for the site but is not very entertaining in my opinion

Moe
07-21-2003, 04:01 PM
Kudos to Dark on the medic role - I thought he did a fantastic job.

I think the idea that SanAn has for the respawn is interesting. I like the idea of limiting the number of respawns b/c it would prevent people from just doing the kamikaze thing knowing that they can just pop back into the game. I know that at one point Jerrold got me and I went and respawned but didn't enter the game right away since it would have been unfair to just pop back in and shoot him in the back.

AustinWolv
07-21-2003, 04:16 PM
There is no point to the game other than to burn BBs.....
Man, that can't smell good. :p

I agree, the San Antonio method was quite good. On one hand, you valued your "life", but you also knew you could get back into the game.

BTW, one other aspect was that each team had their own respawn pole with tape, but there was also a random respawn pole pretty evenly placed in the middle of the field that you could go to as well. I can't recall if the pole was objective-based (as in whoever completed an objective got to use it), possession-based (as in whoever captured it got to use it), or it was open to all to use from both sides.

The current method just turns it into an infinite respawn game, which seems REALLY pointless when tasked with search and destroy unless we are trying to destroy the non-dead zombie population of Austin. The current method also excludes some people who are not as athletic or have the stamina to run across the field multiple times in 95deg heat just to respawn. It is not a bad method by any means, but I don't think it is geared to the types of skirmishes we are playing.

Dark
07-21-2003, 04:32 PM
Thanks moe :cool: I also like the San Antonio idea for respawns. On the subject of medic rules, has anyone tried having a third classification (the other two being RTD and KIA) where a person is considered wounded, can use the radios and talk freely, be moved by other players, but cannot play for a certain period of time or until he is attended to? Thought it might be interesting.

Brittain
07-21-2003, 06:14 PM
There's a third classification already in the rules - Wounded In Action, but we seldom use it just to keep things simpler. However, WIA is simply a respawn whereas KIA would be you're out for good.

No discussion previously has suggested allowing wounded to talk though.

Also, the mission cards themselves actually stipulated KIAs rather than respawn. I opted to change that during the briefing in favor of giving people a better chance of staying in a 1 1/2hr mission. Perhaps, that wasn't the best choice.

One final note, we also made an on-the-fly adjustment to our respawn towards the end of the game. Our respawn was along the W edge of the field just S of the blue barrels. During the game-ending firefight, respawning there would have put us in the Opfor rear-area. Obviously not a fair situation (a nice simulated helo-drop though!). So I instructed our folks to respawn an equal distance N of the barrels.

Hopefully folks agree that was the appropriate thing to do to preserve game play.

Katana
07-21-2003, 10:00 PM
"Hopefully folks agree that was the appropriate thing to do to preserve game play."

That was absolutely the right thing to do, and I appreciate it. It was a good change to make on the fly, and shows an awareness of the nature of the game and concern for everyone's enjoyment of it that you even considered making it.

I'm pretty sure we all enjoyed the game. We're just looking for ways to tweak it a bit. Some of the ideas may have merit... some might not be so hot. We might consider looking them over, though... just in case.



"has anyone tried having a third classification"

I'm not sure I think the idea of dead person giving out intel on the group that just zapped them has good gameplay possibilities. It's a way to keep dead or waiting players in the game and from getting bored, but it sure seems to short-change the eliminating force's advantage in what might have been a stealthy ambush. Also, a zapped player with nothing better to do could probably give far more accurate and continuously updated information on enemy positions than someone that's trying to be combat effective and doing all the little things that this entails.

Rayzor
07-21-2003, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by Katana
I'm not sure I think the idea of dead person giving out intel on the group that just zapped them has good gameplay possibilities. It's a way to keep dead or waiting players in the game and from getting bored, but it sure seems to short-change the eliminating force's advantage in what might have been a stealthy ambush. Also, a zapped player with nothing better to do could probably give far more accurate and continuously updated information on enemy positions than someone that's trying to be combat effective and doing all the little things that this entails.

Very true.

Personally, I like the idea of having tape back at each team's insertion point to limit the respawns. The number of strips of tape can be determined by the number of players on that team. For instance, if you have 10 players on a team, then that team gets 10 small strips of tape. The strips of red tape can be partially stuck to a tree or other object at each team's insertion point, so that when you are KIA, you can go back, grab a strip of red tape, and stick it on your vest/shirt. That way, if you manage to get your whole squad together, you can easily tell who has been killed how many times and how many red tape strips are back at your team's respawn point.

But, like someone said, we need to develop something that's more friendly to the non-athletic type. Hell, we need to develop something period. Even the younger, more athletic types don't like the idea of walking all the way back to their respawn once they get shot at the opposite end of the field.

mcoupe11
07-22-2003, 12:36 AM
I don't think we would even need to use any kind of tape system to implement a limit on the number of respawns. I remember playing several limited respawn games in the past, and I cannot recall any problems arising from the use of that game structure. Each individual is simply allotted a certain number of respawns which they keep track of; when those respawns are exhausted, the player is KIA and out of the game. It's not quite the SA system (personal respawn limits vs team respawn limits) but the overall effect is the same, I imagine.

The honor system is what keeps the hit/medic system together, and I believe it is sufficient to enforce respawn limits. If I can trust a guy to call his hits, then I will also trust him to count the number of times he's respawned.

JMHO.

Dark
07-22-2003, 12:40 AM
"I'm not sure I think the idea of dead person giving out intel on the group that just zapped them has good gameplay possibilities."

A person just shot would still follow our normal wounded rules, but if the medic got to him and his card said wounded, he might, lets say, have to lay down (unless there is thick brush or an ant pile right next to him), and could use the radios and talk still, but couldn't move (unless aided) or fire. It might be something worth trying one game. It might take away from gameplay, but it could also lead to some interesting gameplay, as wounded players would definately be good double-tap targets as well as sources of intel. Also, if the person was shot again, he would be instant KIA.

Rayzor
07-22-2003, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by mcoupe11
The honor system is what keeps the hit/medic system together, and I believe it is sufficient to enforce respawn limits. If I can trust a guy to call his hits, then I will also trust him to count the number of times he's respawned.

JMHO.

At the game on Sunday, second to last game...
Three or four of us were holding down the Cedar Fort. Eventually, 2 of our players were hit, leaving Falcon and I to defend. Moving to the far right side, I had an open, clear shot at an enemy that was where the driver's seat used to be in the van. Keep in mind that the door was wide open. Using a large hole to fire from, I sprayed the OPFOR with many shots via use of bursts and full out auto. BBs hit literally everything, the door, the van, etc. I did NOT hear "HIT" nor did I see the player leave the game.

Point in case, you can't trust everyone to call their hits.

Dark
07-22-2003, 01:07 AM
There will always be cheaters (or people that didn't feel a hit, or thought it was a ricochet). Shoot them again, and again, until they DO call themselves out due to sheer pain. But if we can't trust the honer system, this game is shot to hell anyways. It kind of revolves around it, ya know ;)

mcoupe11
07-22-2003, 08:10 AM
Point in case, you can't trust everyone to call their hits.First of all, the phrase is actually "case in point." It means that your entire case can be proven by the one point in question.

However, I'm far from convinced that the phrase is applicable to Rayzor's post. I would hardly try to argue that everyone who has ever played airsoft in Austin has held themselves to the highest standards of integrity and honesty. I would, on the other hand, strongly defend the position that the core of regular players here in Austin subscribe wholeheartedly to the honor system, or else we'd have never gotten as far as we have.

In my experience here, I have not detected any systemic cheating, although I have been in countless situations where I felt I had clear shots at the opposition, and that those shots should have scored hits but apparently did not. It would not be valid for me to conclude, merely from this anecdotal evidence, that we have a cheating problem here in Austin, as I have also been on the other end of such situations, knowing for a fact that I was not hit, despite the fact that I'm sure it appeared that I was from my attacker's point of view. In short, isolated incidents such as the the one Rayzor has cited can neither be substantiated nor investigated, and I, personally, just chalk them up to my own bad luck.

The BBs we fire are intentionally designed with sub-optimal ballistic characteristics; indeed, the very fact that they and our replicas are limited in their capabilities is what enables us to participate in this sport without risking severe bodily injury. As a result, the BBs simply do not always go where we expect them to go, and they certainly do not mimic well the flight path of real bullets. It might look like an M4 and feel like an M4, but believe me it does not shoot like one. Short of seeing the BBs bounce off of someone and observing them wince, there is no assurance that one has scored a hit that the other person has felt. The law of probability cannot be applied when the path our BBs cut through the air is so unpredictable. There is no "I probably hit him."

Dark makes the point that the entire game of airsoft is built on the honor system, and I could not agree more. Once, I wrote a tiresome tirade rather like this one on what keeps the honor system ticking. It didn't make it over to this new site from the old one, but in it I argued that airsoft works best when we rely on the honor system without reservation. I don't think the sport works if we don't. In closing, let me say that I do not believe that there have never been lapses in integrity out on the field. I do not believe that everyone we play with is deserving of my trust, but as long as I expect to continue playing airsoft, I must extend to everyone the benefit of the doubt.

Katana
07-22-2003, 10:03 AM
"I don't think we would even need to use any kind of tape system to implement a limit on the number of respawns."

"Each individual is simply allotted a certain number of respawns which they keep track of"

mcoupe, I'm just making sure you understand the difference in gameplay execution a tape-based system would have over a regularly medic/personal respawn system....

-In a personal respawn system like we've been using, each player gets a limited or unlimited number of respawns. The respawn figure is player-centric, and each player's personal respawns are unaffected by the rest of his team's performance, assuming that they don't lose the respawn point or allow it to be camped.

-In a tape-based system, there are a limited number of strips of tape at the respawn. One is grabbed each time a player reports back to the respawn to return to duty, reducing the number there. This is a team-centric respawn mechanic, where the rest of the team's performance *will* affect your personal respawn availability. For example, if the rest of your team is getting consistently shot up, then when you return to respawn, there might not be any tape left, and you might not get to respawn.

Personally, I see this method of respawn as having several pros and cons.

+team performance affects you radically. It encourages people to stay alive and not sacrifice themselves, due to peer pressure to not eat up communal resources (respawns).
+No book-keeping. There are simply strips of tape that are reduced in number as the game wears on. Nobody has to remember anything, either.
+Requires return to respawn. You don't simply get near the respawn. You return to it and get a strip of tape off of it. Or you don't.
-Requires players to wear strips of tape. This could also be considered a 'just reward' for someone that allowed themselves to get popped and eat some of the team's respawns, but also note that wearing tape for other reasons, such as team indication has been soundly trounced several times.
-If nobody sounded out on the radio that they took the last spawn, or if they simply didn't receive or hear it because they were distracted, or if perhaps they don't have a radio, then it's very likely that someone or perhaps even multiple personel will make the hike to the respawn and find that there are no respawns left... and that they have made the hike for nothing. Half of me believes this to be really minor, and half of me feels that there are some hot days where I've run all over the field a while and this would make me unhappy. :-(
(but I still like team-centric respawns!)

I don't mean to compare this re-insertion method to the medic system, as I don't think the two compare. They serve different purposes. A medic might eliminate the need for a player to take advantage of a re-insertion, and circumvent their requirement to hike back to the respawn site before joining back into the gameplay. I think the two mechanisms mutually co-exist and complement each other. For example, a person with the patience to wait and be medic'd might be out of the gameplay for a while, but they wouldn't eat into the team's respawn supply if the medic can get to them. This encourages use of medics.

Just some thoughts.

AustinWolv
07-22-2003, 10:13 AM
Katana, as always, good post with great points.

I personally like the overall team aspect of Airsoft, and the concept of a team-based respawn limit reinforces that idea. Very similar to having no respawns at all, in regards to:

1. You don't get selfish and think of just yourself, running around as potential cannon fodder
2. You don't want to let your squadmates down by being out of the action and not able to support them
3. You don't want to penalize your squadmates because of your lack of situational control, gung-ho attitude, etc.

However, I do like the medic system as well, as it does contribute to the overall mil-sim feel of Airsoft. However, I'm wondering if the method employed this past weekend isn't better served when you have a large amount of people, like at an op. With the relatively small numbers we had, it was just too segmented, considering the lone medic we had could be totally across the field anyway and thus not a valuable resource.

Just a few of my thoughts. :)

Rayzor
07-22-2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by AustinWolv
However, I do like the medic system as well, as it does contribute to the overall mil-sim feel of Airsoft. However, I'm wondering if the method employed this past weekend isn't better served when you have a large amount of people, like at an op. With the relatively small numbers we had, it was just too segmented, considering the lone medic we had could be totally across the field anyway and thus not a valuable resource.


Maybe we could come up with something that implements both team-centric respawns and medics?

This past weekend, most of the players I saw that were shot just called themselves KIA and went back to respawn. I did, however, see a good amount of people calling for medics, including myself. Unfortunately, at the end of the game where the huge firefight took place, our medic was far across the field and was not able to reach us to provide aid.

Katana
07-22-2003, 11:16 AM
"Maybe we could come up with something that implements both team-centric respawns and medics?"

Exactly so. That's what I'd like to see us try. That's what I was referring to with: "I think the two mechanisms mutually co-exist and complement each other."

and

Wolv was already taking a jab at me about the medic unavailability when he said: "considering the lone medic we had could be totally across the field anyway and thus not a valuable resource."

Medic unavailability is not a flaw in the system, but rather a flaw in the way our group was organized. Have just one medic, and two wildly separated groups, and you're going to have the problem we had. However, if you have a limited number of team-centric respawns available, people would need to think for a moment before simply calling themselves out and hiking. Also, teams would need to double-check their operating structure and where that would put them medic-wise, as it would play a much larger role in consuming or not consuming team-assets than it did that past game.

Trench_raider
07-22-2003, 11:26 AM
Hey all! I just got in and have say that I greatly enjoyed Sunday's game as usual. Despite having a couple of minor "issues" with my rifle at the begining (which Obsidian cleared up for me...thanks guy!) am quite pleased with how the day went. Y'all are a great bunch of guys and make it well worth the drive down to Austin.

Bill also sends his regards and states that he enjoyed himself. I really need to get him to start posting.

Anyway a couple of quick points:


We popped the tango when he failed to identify himself. We learned that what we thought was the second OPFOR was a friendly, Trench Raider

:eek: Oopsie! Well i certainly deserved that as I answered a call for our non-existant countersign with a burst from the M16. That will teach me to be so trigger-happy! As in the past i have shot a couple of friendlys during our games I suppose it's about time it happened to me.
But good shot to the freindly that shot me.....it was a nice clean hit between the eyes!


After a bit, we were sprayed from behind by an OPFOR that happened to be following us. He was shot multiple times before calling himself out

That would be me that did that. I still have my misgivings about this inccident as the guy was clearly pissed. I'm guessing that I put about 15-20 rounds from the MP5k into him before he started shouting. (I had put the M16 down for a second during a halt) In my defence, he did not call himself out very quickly and simply dove for cover. However I still dislike overshooting folks and I apologize to him once again.
But the lesson here is: please, please, please call out that you are hit in a loud voice and make a gesture like throwing your hands in the air or the like.
One thing I do like about the airsoft community is that eveyone takes overshooting in stride. In an enviorment were automatic weapons are the rule, multible hits are common and we accept that. This is unlike paintball, for example, were many players complain that they have been "overshot" if they get more than two or three hits.

As for the respawn issue, I agree that a team based respawn number is probably best. When I did WW2 reenacting we used to used a "timed" respawn. Casaulties took of their headgear to denote their status and walked to a single "casualty colection point" were they had wait for 15-30 minutes depending on the size and length of the scenario. Efforts were made to get people to respawn as groups rather than go back into the fight as individuals. (if large numbers of players were respawning at similar tims, they would wait for each other) This worked pretty well for the all day scenarios we used to play and the larger numbers that we had. However I doubt this would work given our small numbers.

Anyway, good game once agin and I will see you all when my weekends roll around again late next month!

"Trench Raider"

Brittain
07-22-2003, 11:35 AM
Good discussion.

Reece, I'm about 99% sure Sami understood the implications of the tape system, hence his statement "personal respawn limits vs team respawn limits". However, you did a great job of enumerating the strengths for everyone.

As a side note to this, the software used at the big OPs to score hits uses a pretty involved team-based algorithm. For the exact reasons you said.

Jay
07-22-2003, 11:51 AM
Sorry if this is a repeat...

I have seen, at least, 2 people claim that team-centric respawns will have the efffect of keeping people from going "all gung ho."

I don't see how this can be argued.

If I am a berzerker type and I am told that I can have 20 respawns instead of my own personal 3, then why would I play less berserker-like? I would play more berserker-like.

:confused:

Rayzor
07-22-2003, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by Jay
Sorry if this is a repeat...

I have seen, at least, 2 people claim that team-centric respawns will have the efffect of keeping people from going "all gung ho."

I don't see how this can be argued.

If I am a berzerker type and I am told that I can have 20 respawns instead of my own personal 3, then why would I play less berserker-like? I would play more berserker-like.

:confused:

Then you would clearly have no regard for your team :)

Rayzor
07-22-2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Trench_raider
:eek: Oopsie! Well i certainly deserved that as I answered a call for our non-existant countersign with a burst from the M16. That will teach me to be so trigger-happy! As in the past i have shot a couple of friendlys during our games I suppose it's about time it happened to me.
But good shot to the freindly that shot me.....it was a nice clean hit between the eyes!


It was only after this incident that we developed a challenge/password :D

Anyway...do you know how damn close your bbs came to me!?

*Note to Self* Those short, prickly ass pine bushes don't provide much cover from incoming fire.

Back to my point, we should always keep in mind to develop a challenge/password BEFORE the game...

P.S. - I believe that was Wolv that popped you. ;)

Jay
07-22-2003, 12:05 PM
There is no reason why we can't implement both systems.

You get 'x' personal respawns total, AND you have to "mark off" a team-respawn tally when you go back to the Base.

This can be done with a sharpie and a piece of paper.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14.... 'n.'

Just mark it off.

This way, people won't just be all berserker [they know they only have 'x' respawns total]... AND the "team" has to allocate resources in a certain way.

I really don't see how this is so different from just having a personal amount of respawns, but some people here do.

The main difference, I guess, is that it limits the amount of respawns. While some people really would like that, some others might not. It can be strongly argued that limiting respawns strictly makes the game too defensive and slow.

Of course, this is a taste preference.

Trench_raider
07-22-2003, 01:11 PM
Anyway...do you know how damn close your bbs came to me!?

Hehehe...obviously not close enough as I still missed you! :p As the new gun is tack driving accurate, I suppose we are going to have to write that off as "operator error"!

What's that line in "Murphy's Rules of Combat"? "The only thing more accurate in incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire!"?

And good shot, Wolv!

"Trench Raider"

mcoupe11
07-22-2003, 01:41 PM
Reece, I'm about 99% sure Sami understood the implications of the tape system ...Make that 100%. I suggested personal respawn limits as a simpler, tried-and-true alternative, but it's not as though cutting up tape complicates matters endlessly.

What I like about personal limits is that the incentive/disincentive structure is applied directly to the individual rather than indirectly through team pressure. This, I would speculate, encourages to a greater extent the use of medics.

In any case, I am open to either system and hoping to try out one or both, in conjunction with medics, next Sunday. I think that the overall observable impact on gameplay will be much the same, regardless of which way we do it.

Katana
07-22-2003, 01:47 PM
My apologies to Sami for not thoroughly reading his post.

AustinWolv
07-22-2003, 01:57 PM
Wolv was already taking a jab at me about the medic unavailability when he said: "considering the lone medic we had could be totally across the field anyway and thus not a valuable resource."

Actually, I wasn't. I was merely remarking that due to our mission, the way we approached it, and the field layout, that would have been an issue for anyone taking on the medic role. I can honestly say that you being the medic had nothing to do with that comment.

Here's another suggestion that I don't recall see listed anywhere: Play single elimination. :p



The main difference, I guess, is that it limits the amount of respawns. While some people really would like that, some others might not. It can be strongly argued that limiting respawns strictly makes the game too defensive and slow.
You are correct, it is taste preference. It can also be argued that the games turn into FPS run 'n gun games.
My personal taste, and mine alone, is that I think it is somewhat pointless to have a S&D mission when the Opfor can continuously respawn. The same with move-to-contact skirmishes.

I personally think medic rules/team respawns/individual respawns have their place in objective-based missions, like someone has to hold a point for a certain length of time, or a item has to be placed at an objective.

Moreover, Jay, see my post earlier about my views on the team respawns. You are correct in that it doesn't stop you from being Rambo, but that's for you and your squad to handle. It more than likely not help your team in the long run.

Regardless, this is basically up to the whims of the community.

trench, not sure if it was me or not that shot you, but thanks anyway. :)

Obsidian
07-22-2003, 03:44 PM
The advantage of using the tape is that you win or loose as a team. If you have someone that goes running into battle guns blazing everytime and gets killed then everyone kicks him in the ass and puts him at the back of the group. It works out so that the whole team plays until respawns run out and then it is pretty much over for the team. As opposed to 1 person who hides in a bush all day all of a sudden has 4 respawns left.

The other advantage is with the spawn points that are in the field. If your team moves up and gets past that point you can easily respawn from there instead of walking all the way back to your base. This gives you the advantage of being able to press forward with an attack. The flip sid of that is true also....if you push forward and then run out of those nice close respawns...odds are you are going to loose some ground to the other team. I think overall it promotes teamwork and keeps all of the players in the game. It doesnt degenerate into who can move people from their spawn point the fastest.

The tape works well because when you get done with the game you can look at a person and say what did you do wrong that you have 15 strips of tape on your arm.

Jay
07-22-2003, 04:52 PM
Who would like to try to play like this:

1+ Hour Game
[2] 14-Man Teams
Either S&D or Take the Flag

Each player gets, at most, one RTD and one Respawn.
Limiting factor: team gets 20 [~150% of team size] respawns total.

1. I get shot.
2a. I get medic'd RTD. [goto '3']
2b. I get medic'd KIA [goto '5']
2c. I KIA myself [goto '5']
3. I come back in the game.
4. I get shot.
5. I walk back to Respawn station.
6a. My team hasn't run out of the 20 respawns [goto '7']
6b. My team HAS run out of Respawns [goto '9']
7. I respawn back into the game.
8. I get shot.
9. I'm OUT.

mcoupe11
07-22-2003, 07:35 PM
It's possible that I'm missing something here, but if each person on a 14-man team is limited to one respawn, how does a team exhaust all 20 of its allotted respawns?

Dragon
07-22-2003, 09:09 PM
I think it's like this.

14 is the team head count.
20 is the count for total team respawns.

Everyone on the team gets at least 1 respawn with 6 total left over for 6 team members getting a 2nd respawn.

Who decides who gets the 2nd respawn?

First one KIA'd, again?
SL?

Jay
07-23-2003, 09:27 AM
Sorry. I forgot a parenthetical statement. I fixed it at the following:
http://www.austinairsoft.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2248

In the interest of keeping this thread on topic, I suggest we move this discussion over there.