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View Full Version : Thinking about asking for a sniper for Christmas...



thejackal69
12-06-2003, 11:54 PM
Ok, here's the deal. I really want a sniper, badly enough even to *possibly trade my aeg. Christmas is rollin round, so i figure i'll put this at the top of my list. What i need to know is, of these rifles:

Aps2 sv
Type 96 (maruzen)
SP M40
PDI Socom m24
EDIT: CA Socom m24

Which is the easiest to upgrade (get the right parts for)?
Which is the best stock?
Which is the best buy (quality for money)?

Thank you for your help and consideration.

Mack4
12-07-2003, 12:10 AM
U have to admit the Maurzen L96 looks freaking awsome, has a good price, and the APS-2 series has a horde of upgrades! I'd go for that!
-Mack

mcoupe11
12-07-2003, 08:41 AM
You have to admit the letter "u" does not qualify as a word.

Mack4
12-07-2003, 01:47 PM
Man, I just can't seem to do anything right can I? I have to hand it to YOU;) ; this method of constant harassment has made me more grammar conscientious! :D
-Mack

thejackal69
12-07-2003, 04:17 PM
Thank you for the grammer lesson mcoupe, but does anyone have any advice?

bobbythebee
12-07-2003, 05:23 PM
The APS2 is tried and true, although with any sniper rifle, you're going to need to have a pretty big well of cash to get it tuned just the way you want it.

If the Maruzen L96 has the same innards of the APS2 (I think it does, but I'm not certain), then that's also a good choice. The only thing I'd be worried about would be the outer body having flaws in it. Since there aren't (m)any reviews on it, there isn't much to be said about it, but I don't think that the body could be much worse structurally than the APS2 stock, and if I remember correctly, the standard APS2 stock is pretty durable. (I probably made that sound a lot worse than I intended...)

Skizm had a CA M24, I don't know if he still does. Maybe he can provide some input for that model. If nothing else, you could sent him a PM about it, since he may not read this thread.

Mack4
12-07-2003, 05:59 PM
Check out this link: http://thqreviews3.homestead.com/mattsm16a3.html
-Mack

thejackal69
12-07-2003, 06:47 PM
I've heard (and read in a few reviews) that a CA m24 has very strong internals right out of the box. i.e. can take a PDI 300% spring with a metal trigger assembly and possibly a new charging handle for the bolt action. If this is true, it would make it much more economical than other snipers. Can anyone verify this?

Mack4
12-07-2003, 07:34 PM
I don't know how reliable classic army is, I have heard rumors about there quality control that steered me away from their M-16 series...
-Mack

thejackal69
12-07-2003, 08:13 PM
Yes, i know about the problems with their m16's, but can anyone confirm that the m24 has these rumored internals?

MeanGreen
12-08-2003, 08:32 PM
I own a APS-2 and I am using .43 gram metal coated BBs. It has an upgraded spring but I am not exactly sure how much. I am guessing around 150%-200%. I am very impressed with this weapon and with the custom silencer made for it, it's near silent. One thing you do have to worry about with your rifle is the wind situation a lot more than you have to with an AEG. Although you can make longer shots, it is much more difficult to hit your target. I like my .43 BBs because they don't catch the wind as well as other lighter airsoft BBs but they don't travel as far as one would with lighter BBs. Basicly if you are looking to go sniper, from what I hear from my friends and from my own experience, it takes a lot of patience and practice with your weapon but once you get the hang of it you'll love it.

thejackal69
12-08-2003, 09:24 PM
I already have lots of sharpshooting practice, but i'm sure that is much different than airsoft sniping. Thanks for the advice, i'll see you on the field.

Mack4
12-08-2003, 09:42 PM
Hehe, yah... I am pretty good with a rifle myself- do allota hunting and such (No surprise there...) The airsoft rifle is different.... You gotta compensate.... somtimes you aim at the guys feet and it grazes his neck. The bext thing for me has been the stalking skills I use while hunting. (I do allota urabn hunting) Also the use of a scoped pellet gun has helped me deal with non recoiling rifles and short ranges. Basically, airsoft sniping is fun- but just cause your gun CAN shoot out to 100 yrds doesn;t mean it WILL. My APS-2 was clocking 100 yards and I rarley take a shot outside of 60. But, be prepared for the unexpected! Hope this helps in your quest for long range precision!
-Mack4

MeanGreen
12-08-2003, 09:59 PM
The best way I can summarize airsoft sniping is... on a MUCH smaller scale range and acuracy wise and an over exaggerated wind situation. It really isn't like shooting a real rifle at all IMO because when I was compitition shooting, its on a totally different scale.

mcoupe11
12-08-2003, 11:43 PM
As I've pointed out in another thread, Mack4, you're going to need to improve the quality and coherence of your posts. A brief spell check would work wonders. The same is true for some of the other posts in this thread.

thejackal69
12-10-2003, 05:00 PM
Thanks for the advice guys, I look forward to seeing you on the field.

Katana
12-10-2003, 05:13 PM
One thing that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned here yet, is that the single hits from bb's are less likely to be recognized by the person hit for what they are than a burst of a few hits and some near misses.

So not only are you dealing with the fact that in the time the bb takes to fly out and hit the target, it may have already moved out of the way, but if you hit anything other than goggles they might not realize that they've been eliminated. This is more a problem with new players or players wearing a whole lot of web gear or clothing (ghille suit, for example) than the more experienced guys.

I wouldn't give up an AEG to get a sniper rifle. At that point, it's less of a taste-test and more of a play style that you're locked into, until you can afford another AEG.

MeanGreen
12-10-2003, 07:06 PM
That is also why I like using heavier BBs. The .43 gram metal coated BBs I use bring authority when they are shot. If the person isn't honorable enough to call hit when they are shot, maybe the pain will make them cede.

I agree with Reece though not giving up an AEG for a rifle.

Katana
12-10-2003, 07:26 PM
I don't think honor always enters into it. People get jazzed on adrenaline, they wear thick clothing, they wear lots of web gear. I usually hear hits on myself more than I feel them. People may doubt the adrenaline factor, but I'll come off the field with scratches and scrapes on my face or hands and not remember getting them.

I'll usually hear a loud, solid 'thwap!' when it hits the canvas of some of my web gear, but I've been playing long enough that I'm accustomed to such sounds, plus I don't often have a radio or teammates screaming in my ear, or my head up against the rifle firing it and hearing only the whine of the motor, etc... Sometimes people don't call their hits because they're dishonorable cretins. Sometimes they don't call their hits because they honestly didn't notice.

You make the job a lot easier for them when you hit them multiple times, than if you only hit them once.

They shouldn't be feeling sniper hits any more than any other AEG, despite the added sniper velocity of the rifle because we extended the minimum engangement range, and your average engagement distance should have increased as as result. Also, despite the fact the bb's being fired by snipers are often heavier, they're traveling more slowly. You're giving up velocity for weight. Conservation of energy; no added power. Even if you had the max allowable sniper-rifle upgrade, the added weight of a 0.43g bb should mean it's only traveling at a paltry 340fps or so.

Unless you hit goggles, don't be too shocked if it takes a couple shots before the person calls it. If they're wearing a ghillie suit, don't be surprised if they don't ever call it.

MeanGreen
12-10-2003, 07:33 PM
Although I didn't have the chance to go to the op, I heard some horror stories about some invincible Ghillie suiters :)

bobbythebee
12-10-2003, 07:40 PM
Katana's right, not calling a hit is not always because people are being dishonorable. When I took hits on my vest, I heard them a lot more than I felt them. Even plain old BDUs can keep you from feeling hits, if the BB hits a fold or a loose-fitting spot.

Also, don't trust your eyes or even optics (scope, binoculars, etc) to be able to tell if you've landed a hit; I can't tell you how many times I thought I'd seen my shots nail someone, only to find that my shots were dropping short or missing altogether.

Katana
12-10-2003, 07:53 PM
I don't blame the snipers for wanting to wear the ghillies, as the ghillie suit has become a signature of the sniper trade. Nor do I believe that the snipers were unable to feel their hits were intentionally wearing them for that purpose. I think the seeming increase in the inability to eliminate snipers wearing ghillies is an unanticipated side effect.

However, from this point forward I'm going to advocate disallowing their usage in big games and skirmishes.

MeanGreen
12-10-2003, 07:57 PM
Guys I didn't mean that when a person does not call hit that they are doing it because it is dishonorable, I only meant that to be the case occasionally. Yes, I too have been playing for awhile and I realize more times that not, you don't feel the bbs but you hear them. The heavier gram BBs will help you feel it hehe.

Mack4
12-10-2003, 08:17 PM
What is with all this Ghillie hating? It is just a game!
Like you said; you hear and see more than feel. A person in a Ghillie will most likely be found in a situation where he is being cornered. The person in the Ghillie is unlikely to be shot by surprise since he is the hardest to see and is probably avoiding heaving contact anyways. So anyone engaging him will probably be seen by the guy in the Ghillie simply because he is in an observation mode. I can always tell when someone has popped me in my Ghillie, because the people who are shooting me are usually running towards me form multiple direction spraying me down. Seeing the bb’s approaching I can hear them landing around me and on me, as well as feel the through the gaps in my netting.
A sniper is the most trusting individual on the field, he has to trust his fellow Airsoft players to go out when I single bb zaps them outta no-where. An Airsoft sniper realizes so if there is a good chance one of those 300 bb’s landing around them he or she will go out. (I can only speak for myself here but I believe this is the general attitude)
A .36 with some power behind it (remember the heavier bb’s carry their inertia better than light ones.) usually gets people’s head up. My spotter and I realize people don’t always feel hits so we go for less covered areas of the body. I will NEVER intentionally aim for the goggles or face! The risk of a mouth shot (our friend in Britain is a prime example) or an ear shot (hurts like a mother!) is too great. If you put a torso shot on, ‘em and they don’t respond send another round where they will notice it; neck, arms, lightly covered areas. This is why I prefer a semi-auto sniper rifle; I can place multiple shots on unresponsive targets without moving to give away my position.
Once again; Airsoft is a game. If it turns you on to wear the latest in black tactical gear and run around with a SIG550 then you do it, if it turns you on to run around half-naked with an AK, you do it and if it turns me on to crawl around in a Ghillie suit with a challenging rifle then I do it!
So yes, Airsoft sniping is hard and 99.9% of the time, you won’t shoot and/or your target won’t go out- but if that is your game then do it. We are simulating real warfare here; snipers are a part of that just like assault guys. If someone wants to take the crap and trouble to build his or her skill level in the sniping area then I say more power to ‘em! Heck I wouldn’t mind seeing some guys in a tank rolling over the hill, even if they are on the other side!
Well that is my 500-word rant for the evening…
-Mack

eXe
12-10-2003, 08:20 PM
Katana I 100% agree with you about the ghillie. At RD2 I had the worst time with the ghillie people. I can count many times me and my teammates were just pouring bb's into this ghille snipers from approx 25-40 yards and they would NEVER call there hits. While I think some snipers wear it because of the camoflauge, i believe now that some might be wearing it just to use the exscuse "Im wearing ghillie I didnt know i was shot". The thing that makes me think that is because of the way these guys were being shot. I was shooting him in his face area and yet still not hits called. Ghillie at RD2 was ridiculous, anyone who went up against them in a close fight will know it.

eXe
12-10-2003, 08:23 PM
Mack were you at RD2? I have no problem with someone using ghillie, but when I can pour a few hundred rounds in someone from 30 yards and them not call hit, then its just ruining the game.

Katana
12-10-2003, 08:36 PM
Hmmm....

eXe
12-10-2003, 08:38 PM
What is the "Hmmm... " for katana lol? ;) what are you contemplating?

Mack4
12-10-2003, 08:47 PM
No, unfortunately my team had to drop out because of gun failures at our practice skirmish the weekend before. I realize this is frustrating and although I cannot take responsibility for other snipers in Airsoft, I would like to apologize to you for their actions. I am disappointed someone in a sniping role would stoop to cheating. This is something that must be dealt with at the home field not at a major Operation. Can I ask you a question? Did you approach this person at the end of the Operation and get an explanation for his actions?
I realize Ghillie suits are tough, but they are not tough enough so that you cannot feel a hit from 30 yards away- 60 maybe but not 30. 90 feet is within the minimum engagement distance for snipers and believe me at that range YOU KNOW.
The same problem is on the other side, people sometimes try to shrug off a single hit, or if the person is wearing webbing or a Camelbak they may not feel the shot. This is of course the main problem with Airsoft.
I sympathies with you, when people don’t respond to hits it is very frustrating! But please don’t lay gross generalities or stereotypes on people who wear a Ghillie suit and/or call themselves snipers because of this. If we outlaw Ghillie suits, then we also have to outlaw gear webbing and other bulky clothing- Ghillie suits are more essential to snipers than their rifles. It allows them to remain unseen in the face of sometimes, overwhelming odds.
-Mack

eXe
12-10-2003, 08:52 PM
I see your point Mack4, maybe i was a bit to hasty to judge. However at RD2 there was the ghillie snipers who are giving a bad name to ghillie. I did approach a guy once actually during combat. I had used about a hicap on him and he was just firing his gas blow back at me (we were again about 30 yards). I just stopped and walked up to him and said "dude you gotta be kidding me your out", he then told me he and his ghillie partner had instant respawns because they had been recruited by the russians. Before I could question him more he and his partner ran off. So who knows I guess.

Katana
12-10-2003, 09:01 PM
Mack,

I'm one of the most even-tempered and conservative people around when it comes to rules and calling people cheats, etc. You can ask Greg Spangle, Kevin from Houston, Aaron from Plano, or any of the other heads of the airsoft communities in Texas. I'll be one of the last people to get angry at someone not calling their hits. When I do get angry about such a thing during a game, most of my team-mates have expressed surprise, as I'm not known for that kind of behavior.

Please understand that I didn't form this opinion about ghillie suits in a single weekend. They first started showing up at games about the time of Op:InclementWeather(2), and we've seen them from time to time since. Since they've arrived on the scene, I've seen this problem pretty regularly, and I'm more apt to take the suit out of the equation before I accuse the person of not calling their hits.

There are alternatives to the ghillie suit that serve the same purpose without all the heavy coverage. One of the older members of the FOG team has made use of this camo frequently because it was cooler to wear, and he nailed me from hiding quite often because of it.

Other's may have their own opinions, and I'm not anywhere even close to being the chief of airsoft rules in Austin. However, if someone asks me if I personally think we should allow or disallow ghillie suits for a skirmish, I'm going to advise that we disallow them.

Mack4
12-10-2003, 09:02 PM
Well, you won't have that problem with TOLORG, I guarantee it! In fact if any of our people are giving ya'll trouble let me know and I will take care of it! Cheating in Airsoft is NOT ACCEPTABLE! It ruins everything Airsoft stands for.
If they did have unlimited respawns then what they were doing was legal… I personally would have walked away from the skirmish and re-inserted myself.
I would just like to say I have corresponded with several snipers in the Airsoft community like Bravo2 and Redsarge from redwolfairsoft’s forum and that isn’t a trick they would pull. It isn’t a trick I would pull. Don’t blame the uniform blame the people!
-Mack

Mack4
12-10-2003, 09:11 PM
Well that is one opinion. I am sorry you had a bad experience with Ghillie suits. I cannot help that. All we can do is try to play as best we can. I personally have a beef against Tacvest that are solid, when I do get a shot is most likely a torso snap shot, and when it collides with that thick fabric, they usually do not feel it. I would like to say this- snipers have been dealing with this problem a lot more than normal airsofters have! People not calling their hits has plagued us since ground zero!
So common, this is a problem on both sides! I have one shot to make you think you are out- you have 60-1200 rds to convince me I am out…..
-Mack

Katana
12-10-2003, 09:29 PM
Mack, do you really feel that strongly that you need a ghillie suit to be a sniper?

eXe
12-10-2003, 09:41 PM
Mack about the thing where the guys said they had unlimited respawns. Russians did have unlimited respawns but they had to go out of bounds and respawn, these guys just kept shooting back no matter how many times they were shot. When i inspected them I saw no evidence of the russian blue band either.

Mack4
12-10-2003, 09:42 PM
Let me summarize with a story....
Situation1: Okay it is high noon, we are playing in a very small urban area out back of a warehouse, there is light cover around the edges of a mowed field. I am on the edge of the woods scanning for targets. My team gets decimated after they are pinned down behind some rubble. I tis just me- now the entire Opfor team is looking for me. I have my APS-2 and my tiger stripe I last about hmmm 5 minutes before I am spotted and rushed.
Situation2: Okay, it is about 10:00 in the morning I am set up at the base of a tree guarding a flag, a man appears about 40 yards off looks straight down my scope and disappears into the brush- he never saw me. I had a similar experience at night when people nearly stepped on me.
Do you see the difference? I mean why would real snipers use Ghillies if they weren’t effective. I have witnessed their effectiveness first hand and am blow away by the results. Yes, I consider my Ghillie my most important part of my sniper kit. You could give me a spring pistol and my Ghillie and I would be happy. I have sniped before my Ghillie and I can continue to do so- heck someday I may snipe naked. So in response to your question I am a sniper with or without my Ghillie but I am a effective realistic Airsoft sniper WITH my Ghillie. I am going to lay it down here and now IF (and I stress if) you guys have any trouble with my spotter and I not going out at one of ya’lls ops please come up to me tell me of that instance and I will do whatever I can to make it right. I am glad we are able to come together and talk about these issues! This has been great! I hope I can do my small part to save the honor of the Airsoft sniping community.
-Mack

cclark1985
12-10-2003, 11:33 PM
Sniping is hard. Sniping is expensive. Good job to those who excel at it.

Dark
12-11-2003, 01:01 AM
Although I can't be sure, I think I know the fellows you are talking about. If they were on the farmer team, they might be some of the folks I played with in Forney. There are several people who use ghillies out there. Next time I go out there, I will mention this to them.

Katana
12-11-2003, 01:09 AM
Mack, you are being waaay too dramatic. I'm going to chalk it up to youthful enthusiasm. If you want to skirmish in a ghillie suit with a springer pistol, I will fully support such an endeavor. In the meantime, I can't very well tell people that I'm only for ghillie suits if Mack from team Tolorg is wearing them, so I'm going to be against them for everyone.

I wouldn't worry about saving the honor of the airsoft sniping community. The group I skirmish with have enough sniper rifles to outfit every third man with one. I have one. So far, none of us have needed ghillie suits. Not trying to sidestep the issue, but in the terrain that we play in, just about the only time you'd be close enough to need a ghillie suit to stay hidden would be if you were already within the TASO-mandated minimum range for a sniper rifle.

Bstann
12-11-2003, 08:24 AM
Katana is right on on this subject. I also use a sniper rifle. I actually shot some of the ghillie suit snipers at RD:2 with it, saw the hit, and then watched them change positions and return fire. I believe Airsoft to be a little to fast paced for a ghillie suit. Every time one of them moved they stood out. The only time they help is when you don't move, and in Airsoft you have to move due to range limitation, etc. Anything that has the potential to cause cheating, which then makes players upset, should really have a second look taken at them before they can be used.
My .02 cents.

HammerHead
12-11-2003, 08:33 AM
The "Farmer" team in their Ghillie suits told one of our guys that they had "instant respawns".
-- Cold Steel


Interesting that we were not all informed of that rule, yes?

I feel the need to throw my hat into this ring. Early in the day at RG2, no less than three of us put constant fire on a ghillie-suited sniper near point 9. At no time did he signal a hit. At no time did he recover to respawn. He simply returned fire.

I agree that ghillie suits are overrated for airsoft. I further think that in the hands of any but the absolute most experienced airsoft players, in open terrain, a bolt-action sniper rifle is essentially worthless. In a field environment, the distances will be too great and the opponent moving too fast for a sniper to effectively secure a 'kill'. It is more practical to use a semi-auto, such as the PSG-1 or an SR-25 (I believe that's the Armalite designation), which afford the shooter the opportunity to track BBs at his/her target.

That may all change in the tighter quarters of an urban environment, but I doubt it.

Mack4
12-11-2003, 05:25 PM
:D Well I do have that flair when I write (call it an artistic license), and yes, I am very enthusiastic (while I am still young enough to be!) You'll have to admit though we have had a VERY interesting debate on this issue! Airsoft is game, I will play it as best I can and in the manner with which provides me the most entertainment, if it works, it works; if it doesn’t, then it doesn't. I am going to leave it at that. I find it interesting that this topic started with “What sniper rifle should I get for Christmas.” To a heated debate on whether or not Ghillie suits should be worn during Airsoft games! Well it has been fun; ya’ll have a great Christmas!
-Mack

thejackal69
12-11-2003, 06:59 PM
Lmao, that was one interesting debate. As to ghillie suits, I believe they should be allowed. However, people who abuse them i.e. not calling themselves out when they know they've been hit because they have plausible deniability, should be penalized for their actions. I suggest that we come up with a warning or punishment of sorts for people who do what Bstann described. Perhaps they could first recieve a warning, then if anyone else catches them cheating, they could recieve a short term ban from TASO events. This is of course only speculation, because all of the information dealing with these accusations could be inaccurate, for example if someone thought they hit a ghillie wearer but they really missed or hit a nearby tree.

eXe
12-11-2003, 09:15 PM
jackal, there was no mistaking my hits on some of the snipers at RD2. When your that close you can tell, especially when there just out in the open.

Mack4
12-11-2003, 09:46 PM
Hey just for curiosities sake, I heard the field up at Patriot Airsoft is on the small side, and I noticed a lot of open grass on the tactical map- is that grass mowed? Just for future reference so I can 'doctor" my Ghillie to fit the enviro. up there.
-Mack

thejackal69
12-16-2003, 09:39 PM
No idea man, you may wanna talk to wolv, obs, or agro in the chat thingy.

mcoupe11
12-16-2003, 10:42 PM
... enviro. up there.Rule #1,253: Not typing the second half of a word does not qualify as high-speed-low-drag.

"... curiosity's sake ..."

I don't remember the grass in the open at Patriots ever being tall enough to slink through ... but that's a different topic that deserves its own thread.

AustinWolv
12-17-2003, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by Mack4
Hey just for curiosities sake, I heard the field up at Patriot Airsoft is on the small side, and I noticed a lot of open grass on the tactical map- is that grass mowed? Just for future reference so I can 'doctor" my Ghillie to fit the enviro. up there.
-Mack

The land area is not on the small side, but the wooded area in comparison to the open grass area could be categorized as such. The open field area is mowed a majority of the time, with the tallest I can recall seeing it being a bit under knee height.

Obsidian
12-17-2003, 11:22 AM
It also depends on the time of year. At the last OP there would be no hiding anywhere on the field. At past OPs it has been tall enough in spots that you could hide and get a little cover.